Sex, Power and Politics in the VCSE Sector

In the third of our 'Ordinary Extraordinary Leaders' podcast series, listen to Chris Hailey-Norris, CEO of Up For Yorkshire as he  explores people, relationships and how, as a leader, you interact with people based on different perceptions.  

Transcript

Chris Hailey Norris Sex, Power & Politics transcript

[00:00:00] Hi, it's Chris here, Chris Haley Norris, um, from Up4Yorkshire, and I'm absolutely delighted. Thank you very much. Community First Yorkshire for inviting me here to do a podcast. Wow. Um, so what on earth am I going to talk about? That's probably what you're thinking. And the title for today is sex, power and politics in the VCSE - no, I've got all those letters wrong, which I always do. Let me just say, voluntary and community sector. Um, that's what I'm going to be talking about. Thank you. 

So, I suppose I better start. Um, what's the first point I'm talking about? People. People are everywhere in our sector. People are utterly fascinating.

And I'm sure you can add many other words to that as well. I think some of the key things is around what we do and what we don't know about people. People have very long histories and people can stay around in places for a very long time. And I [00:01:00] think in any role we have in the sector, we walk in, we go into a new opportunity, a new role. But how much do we really know? How much do we know what's been going on, what people think about other people?

People are very fascinating, I've found. I did a psychology degree for three years at York University, which was great. My mum hoped I'd found out why my grandpa was tight with his money. Never got to that.

But we did do an awful lot about behaviours, about different characteristics of people. But I think the most fascinating thing in my 30 years in the sector is when you keep sometimes forgetting that people are people, they are real human beings who have relationships, who have desires, who have histories, who like, don't like certain things, and I think too often sometimes you can be sitting there quite bewildered as to why so and so won't work with you isn't always pleasant with you. You [00:02:00] struggle with them. And quite often, sometimes, why is there seems to be a bit of tension in the team at the moment or, oh, they seem to be spending a lot of time together. So in terms of today and the sex of the whole situation is sex in terms of the relationships people have had, the attractions people have.

The rules of attraction will say in any good partnership work, there's an attraction of something. Not always about, "Oh, you're a bit tasty," but it can be just one of, "I'm really interested in what you have to say. I like your personality, I like your for what we're doing." There's a commonality, or actually, there's a real difference you bring something really refreshing to it, but that can really shape them what we do. And I think quite often some of the best partnerships I had is just it just so happened that the person leading from another organisation I just really got on with. They made me laugh or they were just very polite or ooh, [00:03:00] which I really adore, they gave me lots of lovely compliments about stuff and sometimes it's just like, wow, they're rather nice.

Um, but I think too often we're not open about that. Um, I think sometimes it can then be people misunderstanding why. And sometimes a lot of it is actually, it's not about what people may think it's about. It's actually about, I just really trust this person. Or working with this person really makes a difference.

Sometimes I have popped into an office or two in the past, um, and on a weekend and suddenly thought, "Oh, what are these two people? Both seem to be coming into the building today." Um, and that led to quite a discovery. Um, so sometimes as well, I've been in scenarios where. Oh, I don't quite get how they've got to know about that.

Oh, I didn't know that those two were married. Or actually, those two are in a relationship and oversharing [00:04:00] information about, uh, myself or other people. So I think it is about, if we go into that environment knowing we don't know everything, and never will know everything, I think it just allows you to be not so thrown by the unexpected.

Because that's part of the beauty of working with people, but equally part of the challenge. In terms of the power bit then. Oh, oh, oh, power. Oh, it's very, very interesting as a chief exec. I keep getting I think people are saying, "Oh, it's Chris. Oh, he loves his 1980s pop music. He really wants to have a nice day. Have a little quick chat with him and all as well." 

I'd love to think everybody views me as that, but sometimes job titles can really throw people. So if it's like you're chatting away and then, people go, so what do you do in this building then? And you end up going, well, I'm the chief exec. Quite often, as of last week, somebody just laughed and said, "You're what? [00:05:00] No, really, Chris, tell me what, what are you actually doing in this building? Cause it can't be that." And I went, uh, yes, it is. And then they went really weird and started speaking a little bit. Oh, um, well, um, what are you doing that voice for? Um, so people can have some very, um, embedded thoughts and views of what that means to be a chief exec, or you say manager, or lead, or any of the other different letters and titles that we have.

And that can really throw people, it can make people uncomfortable. And so sometimes people can think about the perceived power of that. Sometimes it can be in other roles of officialdom. So whereas you think, oh that's lovely, that's... Let's call her Peggy. But actually Peggy happens to be a chief inspector at the police.

I'll see them as Peggy but other people might go, Oh, that's the chief inspector. Oh, I can't really possibly speak to them. Some [00:06:00] people I have worked with actually do really love their titles. And actually they do use it as a way to create a barrier, an opportunity to create a distance, and have a lot of unspoken rules about how you must be respected and treated then.

Some power is good. Some power enables us to make very quick decisions, to be able to say yes, to remove fears, to remove blockages in things that you wish to achieve in your organisation. And unfortunately some people can use power to manipulate, to misuse, um, and to really not be as kind and as inspiring and as thoughtful as they should be in the roles that they have.

But also power doesn't always bring strength. Power can bring immense vulnerability. Power can sometimes make you wobble, doubt yourself, feel quite isolated and alone. So it's not that power means automatically you've got lots of support, lots of [00:07:00] friendships. Sometimes it's like you're holding on to a lot of information that you can't share with anybody else.

I also think it's about just being very realistic about how other people will view you and what they will perceive. And sometimes people do forget that everybody answers to somebody. And everybody, and rightly so, is there to be questioned or that you need to respond to and explain why or explore your thoughts about different decisions.

And I find that really healthy. So, I think it's about reflecting on yourself. What are you like? If you're a leader, what are you like? With other people, how do you react to them? With other people in other roles, how do you react? And how is that monitored? I mean, I remember the old days where if you had a certain title, once you got to that point you had to have your own office then, or you've got to have a bigger desk.[00:08:00] 

And honestly, some desks got quite ridiculous, I have to say. My dad still has his old desk when he was a managing director, in an upstairs room. Now it's absolutely gigantic, but luckily we've brought him over the years lots of stuff that he now collects on that. But that used to be his desk, and he didn't even have a computer in the days he was working.

So I don't know what he really put on it. He said it was just a lot of sort of shiny fake leather look, really. But um, there we go. I've drifted slightly, but I love a drift. Um, so it's about what does impact you? How do you perceive power? What do you do with it? Do you let it intimidate you? Do you let it influence you?

Do you look at the person behind the power and do you think about that power and how that can be utilised, what it can do, what it can achieve? So power is all about who you are, what you are, the influence you can have, both good or potentially bad, and how you can negate that. This podcast isn't to give all the answers. It's just to throw out a lot of [00:09:00] questions. It's easy for me. 

So let's move on to the next one then, which is politics. Oh, small P, big P - really doesn't matter on the size of your P. It's sometimes people think that's just party politics. Um, but actually I always say it with a small P and it's about people's beliefs.

It's about people's motivations. It's about. What is the situation at the moment? What is the flavor of the month? What are people really liking? What's happened externally in the world that suddenly has heightened awareness? I've found sometimes with the organisation I've worked for, we've been at the height of being at the real centre of a movement about something, about a real topical topic that has made us flavour of the month, been asked to speak at everything. And at other times, nobody really is thinking about that, talking about that, or is interested in that. 

I think politics can be [00:10:00] at every single level and will be in everything people do. Some people have party politics, some of it will be the politics of just colour, of fashion, of gender, of identity, of so many different levels where politics can be at play.

Some people perceive, because I'm this sort of person, I therefore must do that, or believe that, or follow that. My experience is we are a whole myriad of different thoughts and feelings and reactions and actions to things that don't necessarily follow a logic and don't necessarily always make sense. I have many, many different things, um, that sometimes in some ways people go, well, surely that conflicts.

It doesn't really, it's just how I'm made and that's how I am. I think sometimes as well, people may assume what your politics are or what you're going to believe by the role you have, the organisation you work for, the sound of your voice, [00:11:00] where you live. If you're in a bungalow, you must be such and such.

Or, oh crikey, you like going to that shop, well, I imagine you think that. And I tend to find none of that actually, rolls uh, with so many people. I think politics though can shape what people will do. And I think it's another one to remember that sometimes it isn't about you personally; it's about, Oh no, we can't be seen to be working with that.

Or we can't be doing that. We're in competition with them for funding. Or they might want to then come over and do that work that we've always been doing. So I think sometimes with changing landscapes, changing structures, and I think this is one of the busiest times I've found in my career at the moment where so much is changing, that politics in a way can come to the fore, which can be a real challenge sometimes when people ask for an opinion, when you're there going, we are apolitical, we are here to support and [00:12:00] represent everybody.

And sometimes that can be a hard thing when people are trying to seek an opinion or review. When, ooh, that's a hard one. Sometimes in our roles, we're at the forefront of actually, this needs to change. This isn't good enough. People need to stop discriminating on this, that, the other. People need to take responsibility on this issue.

And that can, rather than us being passionate, suddenly we'll be saying, ‘Ooh, you're getting a bit political. You're getting a little bit, ooh, high and mighty about this, that, the other.’ And I think that can be very hard sometimes, when it's just something you care about. But there isn't a political agenda, but actually aligns with a political party in that very moment or with a political group at that very time.

So those are just some of the things that I think under this heading is about saying, whatever we do, those factors come in. And whatever we do, whether we are that or we're perceived to be [00:13:00] that, there will be impact in everything we do. Sometimes it can be great to talk to colleagues, friends, family.

Sometimes it can be through your own reflection. Sometimes it can be through structured support from other people. I find joining different forums, sharing thoughts and ideas, reading blogs, going on that lovely internet and finding out what's going on. Can be absolutely fascinating just to get you thinking about how to change what you may wish to do, what you maybe should consider more.

All I would say is you go with an open mind and an open heart. Can be absolutely fascinating what you discover. 

And that, for me, is a dried up Chris now. I haven't really got anything more to say about it. If I carry on, it'll soon be a 1980s pop reference. Which I know, not many other people, apart from a small handful of people, would be interested in.

So, thank you so much for listening. It’s an absolute pleasure and I hope that you’ll not just listen to this podcast but all the future ones that are planned because I think it’s a great way to have just a few minutes just to think, reflect and listen to somebody else other than, well usually, what’s going on in my head.

So thank you so much and take care.